Read the sticker: Complete Divine Stuff.

[User3]

Geomancer
Richard Redman told me specifically that that they were going to fix the loophole by which you could be someone who had access to arcane spell-like abilties and be a cleric who happens to turn all spells into spell-like abilities. They didn't. This class is totally incomprehensible, basically useless, and apparently broken. Good times are had by all.

More later.

I'm not quite sure how this works. Please, go on.

[Lago_AM3P]

Actually, here's a bit of a loophole for you guys.

Be something like this: A Cleric 3 / Bard 1 / Wizard 1 / Geomancer X. Yes, seriously.

You'll want that dumb feat in Complete Arcane that gives you a 2nd-level spell slot.

So here's how this works. Wizards automatically know any spell that is in their spellbook, unlike anyone else. They know how to cast even spells they can't cast yet; normally this isn't a big deal because they are still limited by spell slots.

Bards don't have to prepare spells and they get to cast any of their spells known without having to prepare. Big deal.

Clerics (and any preparation spellcaster) don't have to fill their spell slots.

So you put all of the geomancer levels in cleric and leave all of your slots open. You get to match spellcasting parameters as you see fit AFTER you prepare your spells; so now you can cast any spell you know spontaneously without filling it ahead of time (as bard levels let you do) with all of the spells known that you can't cast (as wizard levels let you do). But wait! Since you pumped all of your geomancer levels into advancing your clerical spellcasting, you combine both of these parameters into your clerical spell slots. And as an added bonus, the bard levels let you do the same for your clerical spells (cast any that you know--which would be all of them--without having to prepare). So basically for the cost of 2 caster levels, you get to cast every cleric spell ever and every wizard spell that you have published spontaneously.

You are way behind on spellcasting, no doubt. But you still end up with a much better deal than the mystic theurge.

BTW, you have to have both the bard and the wizard level. Wizards have to prepare their spells ahead of time to cast anything, as geomancers can only mix and max spellcasting parameters after they prepare their spells. Bards don't have to, but they only add spells known for advancing in levels (which you don't have to do).

[Username17]

Precocious Apprentice doesn't work as it has been specifically nerfed to not allow you into PrCs. However, despite Rich Redman's personal assurances to the contrary, they've never actually put forward a definition of spellcasting that doesn't include spell-like abilities.

So currently, there isn't any rule that you can''t use your racial bullshit spellcasting to qualify for classes. And a spell-like ability is an Arcane Spell. So if you're a fvcking Whisper Gnome you have a 2nd level spell that is Arcane. So your plan works as a Wizard 1/ Bard 1/ Cleric 3/ Geomancer X.

You end up as a character who can learn any spell and cast it spontaneously as a standard action with no XP or GP components. But you're one spell level behind and you have to be a gnome.

So you trade dignity for power. Lots of power.

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

And you can always reincarnate or polymorph later into a human--which you actually want to do, as humans are now the best downtime race ever.

Or if you really want to trade dignity for power--level loss.

The bard level still makes you super, super gay, though. Oh, well.

... I can't remember if that retarded 'extra spell' feat gave you an extra spell slot of your second-highest level or the actual highest. Even so, there's got to be a way to combo off of precocious apprentice somehow. I don't mind wearing shiny pants and jamming on a lute, but being a sexy gadgeteer midget is unfuckingsatisfactory.

[erik]

1145772487[/unixtime]]a sexy gadgeteer midget is unfvckingsatisfactory.

That's not what your [loved female's relationship title] said to me last time.

... *awkward pause*

Anywho, rereading this thread renewed my rage over 3.5's rape of the Consecrated Harrier. In 3e I had big plans to play a Consecrated Harrier who went around with an altar case containing his holy execution hatchet. I had enough feats to make him a decent shield basher for when he wasn't on church missions. I barely got to play him much before my group took some time off of DnD. *sigh*

Now I can't imagine touching a Consecrated Harrier in 3.5, other than to kill one and put it out of its misery I suppose.

I had big plans to take Sanctum Spell with that character to lower his effective spell level combined with Craft Wand to make the most sought after wands around. Wand of Antimagic Field? Got it. Level 0 wand of Alter Self? You betcha!

Oh 3.5, you've stolen my dreams, not to mention Lago's [loved female's relationship title]'s virtue.

[Lago_AM3P]

Alternatives to being a crack-ass gnome or playing the difference engine:

Take the Trade domain. It has a fairly sexy spell list (fabricate and mind blank, not that it will matter) and more importantly the domain power is the spell-like ability of being able to cast detect thoughts.

Oh 3.5, you've stolen my dreams, not to mention Lago's [loved female's relationship title]'s virtue.

I don't have any. I am, however, in the US Navy and I bunk with like 50 sweaty, stinky, hairy-ass men. So I guess you've stolen the virtue of all of those filthy men.

You perv. Get out of my office, you disgust me.

Regardless, in 3E, it was completely easy to cheese out the Consecrated Harrier. You make a cult dedicated to the arbitrary beliefs of what you say and and what you feel; thus everything you do is a mission and all of your bonuses apply. Furthermore this was completely supported by the genre (ask Thulsa Doom if you don't believe me).

(edit)

Here's another one. Cast Mnemonic Enhancer after taking the wizard level. Then cast Triadspell (Spell Compedium). The spells that you duplicated will last forever while the Mnemonically enhanced one will fade entirely. Yes, you're going to have to cast these spells from scrolls. Tough titty.

[Neeek]

You know, it's a real shame Precocious Apprentice can't get you into PrCs. If it did, you could get into Cerebramancer at level 4, just by taking Practiced Manifestor at level one as an Ardent, then level 2 as a Wiz/Sorc, then Precocious Apprentice and Ardent 2 at 3rd. You now can cast 2nd level arcane spells, and manifest 2nd level powers.

[User3]

1145784930[/unixtime]]You know, it's a real shame Precocious Apprentice can't get you into PrCs.

Despite what Frank said, I've never seen any ruling that PA doesn't qualify for PrCs. I have seen rulings that spell-likes only qualify for named spell requirements (not spell level requirements).

[MrWaeseL]

They just blanket nerfed all that shit where you get into MyTh and similar classes earlier than just taking the prerequisite levels. Presumably it goes for all classes.

[Book]

Like Catharz said, I can't find any RAW stating P.A. does not allow for PrC prerequisites. And that's checking all my books, errata, FAQ, etc.

Although I think Frank's statement has to do with the feat's author making that statement somewhere on the WotC web site. I could be wrong here though.

Any clarification from anyone?

[Username17]

1145896650[/unixtime]]Like Catharz said, I can't find any RAW stating P.A. does not allow for PrC prerequisites. And that's checking all my books, errata, FAQ, etc.

Although I think Frank's statement has to do with the feat's author making that statement somewhere on the WotC web site. I could be wrong here though.

Any clarification from anyone?

Indeed, the author of the feat said that the fact that it is merely a chance of casting a spell meant that it didn't count as spellcasting for the purposes of qualifying for things. Which is bullshit, but there you go.

Rich Redman, on the other hand, said that in light of the fact that he had somehow not considered that Tieflings cast a 2nd level Arcane Spell every day, that the spellcasting prerequisite of classes was going to be rewritten with that in mind. What we got insted was:

As such, requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast ("Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells," for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations-not even spell-like abiities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropiate level or higher.
...
For example, a prestige class with a spellcasting requirement of "Must know (or be able to cast) darkness" is met by a warlock who chooses darkness as one of her invocations, or by any creature with darkness as a spell-like ability.

It's not even on a different fvcking page. You can't meet spellcasting requirements with a specific spell as a spell-like ability, but having the specific spell as a spell-like abiilty meets the prerequisites of the class.

Aside from the rant in the Complete Arcane, which is contradictory and incomprehensible, they haven't actually said peep about it. The only part of that that makes any sense is the effects of Warlocks specifically - where they have a special rule on page 18 that their class qualifies them for Arcane Caster Level requirements, but not arcane Spell-casting requirements. The effects on non-warlocks is completely unknowable because the discussion on the subject in the Complete Arcane is a hash of crazy talk.

The Complete Arcane is a classic example of "balance by ambiguity" - the goal appears to be to have the rules so open to interpretation that the power goes back into the hands of the DM. Worst book ever.

---

But that's neither here nor there as far as the Complete Divine goes. Just as it contains the Ur Priest that uses the Core Rules prestige requirements instead of the Complete Warrior prestige class requirements - the Geomancer is qualifyable for by a Cleric 3 Whisper Gnome. And actually, that makes one hell of a necromancer - by 7th level you'll be able to squeeze out animate dead as a spell-like.

-Username17

[User3]

1145762883[/unixtime]]
So here's how this works. Wizards automatically know any spell that is in their spellbook, unlike anyone else. They know how to cast even spells they can't cast yet; normally this isn't a big deal because they are still limited by spell slots.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but how is this any different from a cleric knowing every cleric spell (but not being able to cast those for which they lack spell slots)?

[User3]

1145920514[/unixtime]]

1145762883[/unixtime]]
So here's how this works. Wizards automatically know any spell that is in their spellbook, unlike anyone else. They know how to cast even spells they can't cast yet; normally this isn't a big deal because they are still limited by spell slots.

Sorry if I'm being dense, but how is this any different from a cleric knowing every cleric spell (but not being able to cast those for which they lack spell slots)?

Clerics actually know every spell of a level they can cast. A Wizard knows every spell in his spellbook.

So if you are a Geomancer and you have 1 level of Cleric and 15 levels of Wizard, you only "know" every 1st level Cleric spell. But if you're a Wizard 1/Cleric 15 you might very well know some high level Wizard spells - you just have to transcribe them into a spell book. And that's just a skill tjeck (meaning that it's charcter level dependent, not class level dependent).

A geomancer only misses out on the 2 free spells by not taking more levels of Wizard once his magic mixing bullshit catches up to his cleric casting.

-Username17

[Crissa]

[*]A:

As such, requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast ("Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells," for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations-not even spell-like abiities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropiate level or higher.

[*]B:

For example, a prestige class with a spellcasting requirement of "Must know (or be able to cast) darkness" is met by a warlock who chooses darkness as one of her invocations, or by any creature with darkness as a spell-like ability.

I don't see where A and B contradict; A says spell-likes don't fulfill spell level, while B says spell-likes do fulfill a specific spell.

It's not even something I'd have trouble seperating out logically if {caster level check} elseif {specific ability}.

-Crissa

[Josh_Kablack]

I can already see the boards arguments about what these (Sp) abilities do and don't count as for PrC requiements going on forever.

[Username17]

Yes, it says that even a specific spell doesn't qualify for a PrC. Then it says that you qualify for a PrC if you have a specific spell. It really is directly contradictory.

Add in the facts that invocations aren't quite Spell-like abilities and those tirades only apply to Complete Arcane PrCs anyway, and it's a jumble that is literally capable of going on forever. Josh was totally correct.

-Username17

[Desdan_Mervolam]

It's saying that if you have a Spell-Like ability to cast Dispell Magic, it will not let you into a PrC that says "Must be able to cast 3rd Level Arcane Spells", but it will let you into a PrC that says "Must be able to cast Dispell Magic"

There isn't a disconnect.

-Desdan

[Lago_AM3P]

Indeed, the author of the feat said that the fact that it is merely a chance of casting a spell meant that it didn't count as spellcasting for the purposes of qualifying for things. Which is bullshit, but there you go.

Then why can't you just pick up a ring of wizardry and be happy?

Also:

It's saying that if you have a Spell-Like ability to cast Dispell Magic, it will not let you into a PrC that says "Must be able to cast 3rd Level Arcane Spells", but it will let you into a PrC that says "Must be able to cast Dispell Magic"

This is dumb. It doesn't even have a good balance point, as there are PrCs and whatever that hand out spellcasting of X level ability at level one.

[RandomCasualty]

1146077329[/unixtime]]
This is dumb. It doesn't even have a good balance point, as there are PrCs and whatever that hand out spellcasting of X level ability at level one.

Well the idea is that PrCs that hand out the spellcasting of X level ability at level one aren't supposed to be accessible until a much later level when you could have that casting anyway.

Though the D&D PrC system is indeed quite convoluted. Basically they wanted a lot of PrCs to be "can't enter until character level X" and that'd have been balanced, only they didn't say that and instead presented a round about way of doing that with Prerequisites, because they thought it'd somehow be better (why I don't know...).

[Crissa]

I don't see a reason to preclude a character from using ring X to access a prestige class for 'ability to cast spell'... ('Cause it sounds cool.)

...But then you get into the nonsense of whether class abilities go away when your ability goes away ala Master Swordwhatever.

-Crissa

[Desdan_Mervolam]

1146077329[/unixtime]]
This is dumb. It doesn't even have a good balance point, as there are PrCs and whatever that hand out spellcasting of X level ability at level one.

*Shrugs* Never said it was a good idea. I just said that's how the rule was written.

-Desdan

[Lago_AM3P]

Forget that spell-like ability jazz.

I think there's a feat in Races of the Dragon that lets you combine two lower level spells such that you can cast one of higher level. The catch being that you have to already be able to cast spells of that level.

So the idea is that you take both silly feats and then you're suddenly able to cast 2nd level spells of your 'real' spellcasting class. Thus qualifying for the PrC. Whoo.

Or something like this.

Human Bard 1 / Wizard 1 / Cleric 3

1 That feat from Complete Arcane that gives you dragon blood, Precocious Apprentice
3 That feat from Races of the Dragon that lets you combine two lower level spells to cast a higher level one.

Then at level 9 you get to cast all 4th level cleric spells and every wizard spell you have a copy of spontaneously. Whoo.

So much for balancing by ambiguity. And to all of you people who support this method of 'balance' I hope you get your genitals caught in a metal fishing line snare.

[Neeek]

1146116299[/unixtime]]

Human Bard 1 / Wizard 1 / Cleric 3

1 That feat from Complete Arcane that gives you dragon blood, Precocious Apprentice
3 That feat from Races of the Dragon that lets you combine two lower level spells to cast a higher level one.

That feat requires a Sorcerer level. You are better off just being one of the dragon blood races from the book.

[Lago_AM3P]

That feat requires a Sorcerer level. You are better off just being one of the dragon blood races from the book.

You could be a sorceror, too. Honestly, being a bard isn't all that great for one level, what with 3.5E nerfing the shit out of them and the geomancer's class feature of 'wear any armor while using arcane spells'.

You're basically out a pile of skill points and the ability to use a longbow/longsword. Not an insignificant trade, mind you, but I'd rather have the feat (so I can get the planning domain and have DM: Persistent Spell by level 6 whoo).

[Neeek]

1146119138[/unixtime]]

That feat requires a Sorcerer level. You are better off just being one of the dragon blood races from the book.

You could be a sorceror, too. Honestly, being a bard isn't all that great for one level, what with 3.5E nerfing the shit out of them and the geomancer's class feature of 'wear any armor while using arcane spells'.

You're basically out a pile of skill points and the ability to use a longbow/longsword. Not an insignificant trade, mind you, but I'd rather have the feat (so I can get the planning domain and have DM: Persistent Spell by level 6 whoo).

Looking at the feat again, you don't need to be have dragonblood, nor do you need to be a Sorcerer. The Draconic Heritage does, but you don't need it.