2E D&D vs. 4E D&D: Which combat is more interesting?

[Koumei]

Spoon feed my ass,

Quotation marks are your friends, you know. They can result in you saying what you mean, as opposed to what appears to be an instruction there. For the record, you're doing it wrong, spoon feeding the ass results in talking shit.

[tzor]

Spoon feed my ass,

Quotation marks are your friends, you know. They can result in you saying what you mean, as opposed to what appears to be an instruction there. For the record, you're doing it wrong, spoon feeding the ass results in talking shit.

My fault, sometimes I think I’m on the Nifty board (shit -> spoon).

[shadzar]

and dwarves can detect grade or slope...

The point is everything is not spoonfed. AS you said the coin int he fountain gave the players something to think about. You would also ask why is a statue in this room?

The act of the matter is that is up to the players what to do. The DM shouldn't remove their options from them for whatever reason.

Elves had sort of a spidey-sense.

Secret doors (those constructed so as to be hard to notice) and concealed doors (those hidden from sight by screens, curtains, or the like) are difficult to hide from elves. Merely passing within 10 feet of a concealed door gives an elven character a one-in-six chance (roll a 1 on 1d6) to notice it. If actively searching for such doors, elven characters have a one-in-three chance (roll a 1 or 2 on 1d6) to find a secret door and a one-in-two chance (roll a 1, 2, or 3 on 1d6) to discover a concealed portal.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

Notice how there is more than a single mode.

Also note that it doesn't state how the door is concealed, or operated, just that the elf can notice it.

DM: Galadarin you see something unusual about the base of the statue on your left.

The elf noticed it. Now they have to figure out if they want to investigate it further, or how to open it, or what to do with the information given.

A DM is likely to get his teeth knocked down his throat should I hear this:

DM: Shadzar you pass by a secret door that opens by pushing to 3rd brick up the wall under the torch.

Well why the fuck didn't you just open the door for us while you are at it, rather than let us do anything about figuring anything out.

Must be the Little Golden Book edition of D&D. :snore:

[Archmage]

Archmage’s example is poor because while the character died, unless he was acting alone (well he was a rogue, not always the brightest in the pack, “shut up and get out of my way, you’re ruining my surprise”) the other players would have noticed the trap floor in front of the door because they would have seen how he died (falling down and the sudden silence as he entered the sphere of aniliation).

You can't be sure of that, and that's the point. For all you know, the door's hinges are covered in death-no-save contact poison. Maybe there's a magic field on the door that only kills rogues (without leaving a mark or any visual effect). Who knows? It's entirely possible for the DM to describe the way the rogue dies in such a way that nobody will have any idea why it happened. The fact that it's a dick move doesn't mean it's implausible. And there are plenty of situations in which a rogue scouting ahead of the party might've been forced to attempt to disarm a trap without his allies watching. It seriously isn't that far-fetched a situation.

I figured I might've actually gotten through somewhere with my last round of attempts, but shadzar's response demonstrates beyond a shadow of a doubt that he neither read nor understood anything I wrote. Seriously, how the hell do you get "players don't get to make choices, they just roll dice to make skill checks" out of "players need to be able to get adequate information to make intelligent choices?" Why would you ever assume that the DM dictates what choices the character makes just because they have passive skills that let them notice threats or interesting dungeon features? These things exist so the DM can stop the action for a second, tell the player "hey, your character notices X" and then the player can decide how to respond.

The only explanation that I can think of at this point, aside from the obvious assumptions about shadzar's intellect or intent-to-troll, is that shadzar genuinely believes that D&D is a game where the primary goal is to tediously explore 5x5 squares of a dungeon to make sure you don't miss any deathtraps or secret doors. If you, the player, can't figure out that opening door A requires you to turn candlestick B to the left exactly 34.7 degrees and leave it in that position for precisely 18.2 seconds, you don't deserve to find out what's behind it.

Roleplaying isn't playing and developing characters in a fantastic world as they overcome challenges and hopefully create an interesting story. It's not trying to assume the mindset of a person who isn't you to explore a different perspective. Roleplaying is about poking things with a 10-foot pole and playing some bizarre verbal equivalent of a Sierra hunt-the-pixel adventure game where your character is a blind retard who doesn't respond to his environment in any way unless you're pushing the arrow keys. Because we certainly don't want RPGs to be anything like video games.

End sarcasm. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled thread.

[shadzar]

Roleplaying isn't playing and developing characters in a fantastic world as they overcome challenges and hopefully create an interesting story. It's not trying to assume the mindset of a person who isn't you to explore a different perspective. Roleplaying is about poking things with a 10-foot pole and playing some bizarre verbal equivalent of a Sierra hunt-the-pixel adventure game where your character is a blind retard who doesn't respond to his environment in any way unless you're pushing the arrow keys. Because we certainly don't want RPGs to be anything like video games.

King's Quest was quite fun thank you very much. So was Leisure Suit Larry, even before there were arrow controls.

> Walk left
> Open door
> Buy rubbers

You like many others seem to think you have the right to define the game for others, and that is why you fail. You decide the right way to play, based on what you want; however you are wrong. Not everyone likes the boring ass shit you do.

Some people like to search 5 square foot areas for things, rather than have the DM pass out the loot form every unchecked room after the dungeon has been cleared of monsters. Some like checking room B16 if they want something from it. If they skip it, then they don't get what B16 contained.

Some people play for adventure and exploration, rather than the minis game of combat after combat. We have WH40k for that. YES, squats are allowed!

What some of you people fail to understand is you are min-maxing the entire game. Minimal options, for maximum combats.

Do as 4th suggests and skip the boring PR parts of the game like talking to the two guards at the city gates, and just run straight combat....for 100 rounds per at 1 hour each under 4th.

Player Z: Is it my turn yet?
DM: Wait I have to check on the minion status and saves
Player A: I still have to check my saves as well
Player B: I haven't made my attack yet.



Player Z: Wake me when my weekly power recharges at this rate....


If you are going to not let players do anything and just want to spoonfeed them your story, why not just give them a DMPC to travel with to watch the story you want to tell them, rather than let them do what D&D was meant to: give people the chance to be the protagonists and make choices for them rather than just listen or read about them. Then the players can sit back and watch your DMPCs awesome cinematic battle cut scenes as well.

What time is that Uwe Boll movie coming on? I think I will watch it instead of playing D&D at that rate.

[TOZ]

Roleplaying isn't playing and developing characters in a fantastic world as they overcome challenges and hopefully create an interesting story. It's not trying to assume the mindset of a person who isn't you to explore a different perspective.

...

End sarcasm. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled thread.

Do as 4th suggests and skip the boring PR parts of the game like talking to the two guards at the city gates, and just run straight combat....for 100 rounds per at 1 hour each under 4th.

I fail to see how you drew that conclusion as our goal.

[Heath Robinson]

You like many others seem to think you have the right to define the game for others, and that is why you fail. You decide the right way to play, based on what you want; however you are wrong. Not everyone likes the boring ass shit you do.

Wow. Can someone bill Shadzar for a new irony meter. Mine just broke.

[shadzar]

Roleplaying isn't playing and developing characters in a fantastic world as they overcome challenges and hopefully create an interesting story. It's not trying to assume the mindset of a person who isn't you to explore a different perspective.

...

End sarcasm. We now return you to your regularly-scheduled thread.

Do as 4th suggests and skip the boring PR parts of the game like talking to the two guards at the city gates, and just run straight combat....for 100 rounds per at 1 hour each under 4th.

I fail to see how you drew that conclusion as our goal.

4th was created because that was what the company saw people wanted. Which people? We can only guess. I would wager the same people they made 3rd for. People who had not yet picked up D&D and got burned out on expansion bloat, those who had disposable income, and those who were from a specific style of gaming.

This is how D&D started, made for wargamers...

What has been happening, is people relying more on rules for everything and to tell them what to do, like in combat, that caused the at-will spam to be combat for 4th.

People whining about not having a rule, and not knowing what to do, because they fear making something up and investing it their own decisions or those of their DM because of some war created in the mind of a few that all DMs were as bad as the ones the experienced, and that wrong idea spreading like wildfire to every corner of the gaming world.

Take for example the now called "hoodie" or "beanie". These items have been around for years. Actually beanie was another item, but the name was stolen from a hat without a brim to come to mean a toboggan. While a hooded sweater became a "hoodie".

So sadly many people don't invest in their characters and look to the books for all the answers. The neglect the parts of their books that tells them the books don't have answers to everything, and what the kob of the DM is, and how he will fill in the gaps so that players can play when the rules have omitted something.

This is where the 4th=Wow, stuff really came about. Not only the "roles" taken from MMO concepts wherein that was the limited of what a character can do in a non-GM driven system, but an automated one; but also how everything is point and click. You have your list of options and just choose from what is given.

In the context of combat, that is all there is in 4th. You spam powers and second wind when you have healing surges, until you are left with just your at-wills.

The game has reverted to before Chainmail as exploration has been removed as with the guards example from page 42, you just skip the boring exploration to get to the combat. Which brings back the armchair general, but just for a single person in the army. A nameless combatant it may well be. So it is not a role-playing game, but a soldier playing game or SPG.

So while the intent was to be sarcastic in what was said, the truth is that many people truly feel that way, and think the game always was that. Gary acknowledged that there was more to the game than combat, but you didn't have to go into thespianism with Thou, Thee, Shalt and such in order to assume the role of the character.

Sadly many people just get the combat, or just like the combat, and don't invest into the rest. Just look at how people optimize/min-max/etc and build character stat blocks rather than create who is the character, why are they adventuring, what is their goals.

So the character has become just a stat block where people aren't developing characters, but building them like some Erector set.

Seriously 4th does state to skip the boring RP and get into combat.

Sadly as a majority have shown in this thread, the 4th edition combat isn't that interesting. So it means those that think it is, are just going through the motions to gain the next level.

What is there to get to at that level when they reach the highest? Hit the restart button and do it all again?

So 4th was designed for those that don't want character development. It turned away from what the game was about. Becoming the protagonist in a story rather than reading about it. It became just an action game on a computer but without all the visuals.

So for people who don't like role-playing games, then 4th offers everything you want out of it. You get to skip the role-playing and have a customizable cooperative miniature game.

[souran]

It was even more stupid because half the values on a 2e charsheet are set up to be abstractions for minatures play. The reason movement rates are 6 and 12 and whatnot and you have to multiply by 5 to get a linear distance is because your movement rate is tied to how many SQUARES gygax thought shit should move back in CHAINMAIL.

Movement
Closely related to time is movement. Clearly your character is able to move; otherwise, adventures would be rather static and boring. But how fast can he move? If a large, green carrion crawler is scuttling after Rath, is the redoubtable dwarf fast enough to escape? Could Rath outrun an irritated but heavily loaded elf? Sooner or later these considerations become important to player characters.
All characters have movement rates that are based on their race. Table 64 lists the movement rates for unencumbered characters of different races.
A character can normally walk his movement rate in tens of yards in a single round. An unencumbered human can walk 120 yards (360 feet), slightly more than a football field, in one minute. A dwarf, similarly equipped, can walk 60 yards in the same time. This walk is at a fairly brisk, though not strenuous, pace that can be kept up for long periods of time.


Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

Try getting your information right before you denounce it please.

Your 6 and 12 representing "tens of yards" so you add a 0 to the end of the number. Not multiply by 5. Not game without enormous mechs has a square equal to 10 yards length or width.

You are mixing the movement inches in 1st, or spell inches in 2nd with movement in 2nd.

By the way, I went home and looked this up in my AD&D 2e PHB. This is all total bullshit.

The movement in combat section (page 96) indicates that a player can move a maximum of his movement rate TIMES 10 in feet in a single round. They can move only half this distance or MOVE RATE * 5 and still attack.

As chainmail and the games foundation games were effectively played in "always in combat" mode it is now easy to see why in combat and tactics they reverted to "your move rate is how many squares you can move"

[shadzar]

Try Chapter 14: Time and Movement, pg 157.

[souran]

Try Chapter 14: Time and Movement, pg 157.

Why don't you try movement in combat. The time and movement section applies to abstract non combat related movement.

Edit:

Infact, the ossilating multipliers to get linear distance from movement rate FURTHER proves my point.

Movement Rate was a hold over minaturers game characteristic linked directly to playing field.

As the game became more abstract they held the characteristic and gave it different multipliers at different times. In combat its feet, in overland travel its yards.

This meant that charactersheets would still provide the "simplest information" needed to play with minatures. The movement rate can be translated directly into inches or squares. On the other hand, players not using mini's or attempting to travel signficant distances just look at what they are doing and multiply by the correct value.

Again, the core characteristic is a hold over from mini's gaming, and results are TACKED ON.

This in general is why 2e is CRAP. EVERY SYSTEM is like this. A lot of the games systems only make sense when you play through some of the classic adventuers (against the giants etc.). It has pointless holdovers that cease to have meaning. Also I forgot how amazingly annoying the orginal printing was to read. Those blue headings and off color artwork. I had to take headace pills after leafing through that crap.

[shadzar]

In a combat round, a being can move up to 10 times its movement rating (see Chapter 14: Time and Movement) in feet. Thus, if a character has a movement rating of 9, he can move up to 90 feet in a round.

Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

It was even more stupid because half the values on a 2e charsheet are set up to be abstractions for minatures play. The reason movement rates are 6 and 12 and whatnot and you have to multiply by 5 to get a linear distance is because your movement rate is tied to how many SQUARES gygax thought shit should move back in CHAINMAIL.

Now that we are on the same page as it were...Where is your multiply by 5 at?

You just used scaled movement rates to match up with the 5 feet squares in Chanmail to try to make your point that failed right?

You made shit up to try to connect it closer to Chainmail, thinking you wouldn't get caught in your lie.

Yes the 6 and 12 were standard, and reused form Chainmail because they represent the same distance. But quess what. Squares didn't exist in Chainmail EITHER! They used a ruler. Squares came about for dungeons because you had a floor and drawing a map on a grid was helpful to align things up.

It wasn't squares existed for minis, but for the DM to know how big a room was, and for Dungeon Geomorphs so you could slap out a quick dungeon or cavern.

So another fail to try to connect them. You must be using Clix games to identify with Chainmail because the new ones use the gridded maps whereas they originally did NOT. Mage Knight had no grid, just like Warhammer and any other game that didn't play specifically on a hex map like B5 did.

Not only fo you need the rules to tell you which button to push to activate combo-move-power X, you also need the floor squares to light up when you walk like 4th?

And then you bitch about the need for a battlemat because of movement rates correlated to Chainmail?

Buddy, you could play 2nd without any map on the table, but 4th requires it.

I think you have your games backwards. Or you are just too pissed you cannot understand spacial distances without some map with your Neanderthal brain.

Required Materials
Aside from a copy of this book, very little is needed to play the AD&D game.
You will need some sort of character record. TSR publishes character record sheets that are quite handy and easy to use, but any sheet of paper will do. Blank paper, lined paper, or even graph paper can be used. A double-sized sheet of paper (11 × 17 inches), folded in half, is excellent. Keep your character record in pencil, because it will change frequently during the game. A good eraser is also a must.

A full set of polyhedral dice is necessary. A full set consists of 4-, 6-, 8-, 10-, 12-, and 20-sided dice. A few extra 6- and 10-sided dice are a good idea. Polyhedral dice should be available wherever you got this book.
Throughout these rules, the various dice are referred to by a code that is in the form: # of dice, followed by "d," followed by a numeral for the type of dice. In other words, if you are to roll one 6-sided die, you would see "roll 1d6." Five 12-sided dice are referred to as "5d12." (If you don't have five 12-sided dice, just roll one five times and add the results.)

When the rules say to roll "percentile dice" or "d100," you need to generate a random number from 1 to 100. One way to do this is to roll two 10-sided dice of different colors. Before you roll, designate one die as the tens place and the other as the ones place. Rolling them together enables you to generate a number from 1 to 100 (a result of "0" on both dice is read as "00" or "100"). For example, if the blue die (representing the tens place) rolls an "8" and the red die (ones place) rolls a "5," the result is 85. Another, more expensive, way to generate a number from 1 to 100 is to buy one of the dice that actually have numbers from 1 to 100 on them.

At least one player should have a few sheets of graph paper for mapping the group's progress. Assorted pieces of scratch paper are handy for making quick notes, for passing secret messages to other players or the DM, or for keeping track of odd bits of information that you don't want cluttering up your character record.
Miniature figures are handy for keeping track of where everyone is in a confusing situation like a battle. These can be as elaborate or simple as you like. Some players use miniature lead or pewter figures painted to resemble their characters. Plastic soldiers, chess pieces, boardgame pawns, dice, or bits of paper can work just as well.



Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

Of course it says minis for battle, but I bet that was because all the people licensed to make them, TSR felt the need to promote them much like....

Miniatures: Each player needs a miniature to represent his or her character, and the DM needs minis for monsters. Official D&D Miniatures are custom made to be used with the D&D game.

Battle Grid or Dungeon Tiles: Combat in D&D plays out on a grid of 1-inch squares. You can pick up an erasable battle grid at many hobby game stores, or try D&D Dungeon Tiles—heavy card stock tiles that can be set up to create a wide variety of locations—or you can create your own grid.

4th really pushes getting you to buy minis.

So what is the gripe about 2nd needing minis that your CLAIM exists, just because it mentions them in the PHB? HA! 4th makes the minis known up front because it IS just a minis game. DDM 4.0.

I prefer DDM 1.5 (War Drums rules), so If I want to play a D&D minis game, then I will play that one. Or break out BattleSystem, or Chainmail.

Because WotC was upset their Dreamblade minis game didn't take off, nor did DDM become mainstream so they designed 4th edition to be a minis game that needed battlemaps, dungeon tiles, and minis that they could sell because books sells were known to drop off quickly. Because Slavesik thought people just wanted to play with minis when they sat down to play D&D.

Shoe -> other foot.

Chadra the Infernal Warlock: How far do you think you can run?
Thersrul the Raven Queen Paladin: About 5 squares.
Chadra:

Yeah, there is some real immersion in the game! Great combats can come from a half-assed mini combat simulator in disguise as an RPG.

[souran]

Now that we are on the same page as it were...Where is your multiply by 5 at?

Look you idiot. Learn to play the game you actually like. The movement in combat section of the combat rules specifically says that the maximum movement is 10 times movement rate in feet.

However, you can only attack if you move HALF that or movement times 5 and still take a combat action.

The 3rd edtion move action/ standard action are based on this movement scheme which goes all the way back to chain mail.

You just used scaled movement rates to match up with the 5 feet squares in Chanmail to try to make your point that failed right?

You made shit up to try to connect it closer to Chainmail, thinking you wouldn't get caught in your lie.

Look, I already knew you where a troll but know I know you are a lieing asshat too.

Yes the 6 and 12 were standard, and reused form Chainmail because they represent the same distance. But quess what. Squares didn't exist in Chainmail EITHER! They used a ruler. Squares came about for dungeons because you had a floor and drawing a map on a grid was helpful to align things up.

Are you retarded? Blank hex maps or even free form movement were fairly stnadard movement schemes even before chainmail.

It wasn't squares existed for minis, but for the DM to know how big a room was, and for Dungeon Geomorphs so you could slap out a quick dungeon or cavern.

You can be as delusional as you want but movement rate is a hold over from when D&D was no more complex than the later heroquest.

I have family photos of people playing on the blank reverse of old wargame maps. The game orginated out of table games and movement rate is a hold over from that. You can read about he games development, you can trace it through the books. Either way it doesn't matter to me because as far as I can tell your only reason for posting is to continually be a complete moron.

So another fail to try to connect them. You must be using Clix games to identify with Chainmail because the new ones use the gridded maps whereas they originally did NOT. Mage Knight had no grid, just like Warhammer and any other game that didn't play specifically on a hex map like B5 did.

Not only fo you need the rules to tell you which button to push to activate combo-move-power X, you also need the floor squares to light up when you walk like 4th?

And then you bitch about the need for a battlemat because of movement rates correlated to Chainmail?

Buddy, you could play 2nd without any map on the table, but 4th requires it.

I think you have your games backwards. Or you are just too pissed you cannot understand spacial distances without some map with your Neanderthal brain.

Required Materials
Aside from a copy of this book, very little is needed to play the AD&D game.
You will need some sort of character record. TSR publishes character record sheets that are quite handy and easy to use, but any sheet of paper will do. Blank paper, lined paper, or even graph paper can be used. A double-sized sheet of paper (11 × 17 inches), folded in half, is excellent. Keep your character record in pencil, because it will change frequently during the game. A good eraser is also a must.

A full set of polyhedral dice is necessary. A full set consists of 4-, 6-, 8-, 10-, 12-, and 20-sided dice. A few extra 6- and 10-sided dice are a good idea. Polyhedral dice should be available wherever you got this book.
Throughout these rules, the various dice are referred to by a code that is in the form: # of dice, followed by "d," followed by a numeral for the type of dice. In other words, if you are to roll one 6-sided die, you would see "roll 1d6." Five 12-sided dice are referred to as "5d12." (If you don't have five 12-sided dice, just roll one five times and add the results.)

When the rules say to roll "percentile dice" or "d100," you need to generate a random number from 1 to 100. One way to do this is to roll two 10-sided dice of different colors. Before you roll, designate one die as the tens place and the other as the ones place. Rolling them together enables you to generate a number from 1 to 100 (a result of "0" on both dice is read as "00" or "100"). For example, if the blue die (representing the tens place) rolls an "8" and the red die (ones place) rolls a "5," the result is 85. Another, more expensive, way to generate a number from 1 to 100 is to buy one of the dice that actually have numbers from 1 to 100 on them.

At least one player should have a few sheets of graph paper for mapping the group's progress. Assorted pieces of scratch paper are handy for making quick notes, for passing secret messages to other players or the DM, or for keeping track of odd bits of information that you don't want cluttering up your character record.
Miniature figures are handy for keeping track of where everyone is in a confusing situation like a battle. These can be as elaborate or simple as you like. Some players use miniature lead or pewter figures painted to resemble their characters. Plastic soldiers, chess pieces, boardgame pawns, dice, or bits of paper can work just as well.



Copyright 1999 TSR Inc.

Of course it says minis for battle, but I bet that was because all the people licensed to make them, TSR felt the need to promote them much like....

Miniatures: Each player needs a miniature to represent his or her character, and the DM needs minis for monsters. Official D&D Miniatures are custom made to be used with the D&D game.

Battle Grid or Dungeon Tiles: Combat in D&D plays out on a grid of 1-inch squares. You can pick up an erasable battle grid at many hobby game stores, or try D&D Dungeon Tiles—heavy card stock tiles that can be set up to create a wide variety of locations—or you can create your own grid.

4th really pushes getting you to buy minis.

So what is the gripe about 2nd needing minis that your CLAIM exists, just because it mentions them in the PHB? HA! 4th makes the minis known up front because it IS just a minis game. DDM 4.0.

I prefer DDM 1.5 (War Drums rules), so If I want to play a D&D minis game, then I will play that one. Or break out BattleSystem, or Chainmail.

Because WotC was upset their Dreamblade minis game didn't take off, nor did DDM become mainstream so they designed 4th edition to be a minis game that needed battlemaps, dungeon tiles, and minis that they could sell because books sells were known to drop off quickly. Because Slavesik thought people just wanted to play with minis when they sat down to play D&D.

Shoe -> other foot.

Chadra the Infernal Warlock: How far do you think you can run?
Thersrul the Raven Queen Paladin: About 5 squares.
Chadra:

Yeah, there is some real immersion in the game! Great combats can come from a half-assed mini combat simulator in disguise as an RPG.



Removed extra quote tag --Z

[tzor]

4th was created because that was what the company saw people wanted. Which people? We can only guess. I would wager the same people they made 3rd for. People who had not yet picked up D&D and got burned out on expansion bloat, those who had disposable income, and those who were from a specific style of gaming.

This is how D&D started, made for wargamers...

First of all, we can discuss the origins of 4E until the cows come home (the department of the institutively obvious to the casual observer will insist that revenue requirements and the basic desire of a new generation of developers not to have to deal with the shit problems caused by the designs of those who came before them were and always will be the primary motivators for any such change) but that is not the point of this thread.

Likewise we can discuss the origins of D&D at length. D&D started out from the war gaming community. But it was not a war game from day one, indeed it was the opposite in a number of interesting ways. It concentrated on the individual and not on the unit. It actually concentrated on the “fluff” more than the combat aspect because the actual combat rules were already established in a previous game (chainmail).

By the time you got into Gygax’s AD&D most of the game is fluff; Gygax couldn’t write a combat system to save his life. His non weapon combat rules were shit; the psionic combat rules were almost completely incompatible with either weapon or non weapon combat. But the rules on creating random dungeons, your own holy water fountain, etc were most of the material in the DMG!

P.S. Souran, you fucking idiot, get your fucking quote blocks right!

[shadzar]

Gygax's ability or lack thereof to make rules for combat does not change the fact the game was made for wargamers. That is all I said. I never said he made it well for wargamers.

That is where all the work from Dave comes in.