Logic: Use Wisely or leave it alone.

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Logic: Use Wisely or leave it alone.

Post by Username17 »

Logic is a powerful tool when used correctly. Lately it's been used incorrectly by a lot of people.

In order to clear things up, the rules of Sentential Logic apply if and only if you are dealing with declarative sentences. If you bothered to read your Logic textbooks, you'd note that they all have very similar caveats when describing the limitations of Logical Grammar:

University of Manchester Department of Linguistics wrote:I shall ignore some more obvious and less fundamental divergencies from logical grammar, such as appear in questions, exclamations, commands, etc., and concentrate on declarative sentences ('statements'). The indicative element, which is essential to every sentence, is explicit here. With regard to statements, the tendency has been to say that, although they do not always exactly conform to logical grammar, they do so "roughly". From Aristotle to the present day, most failures in the exploration of ordinary language and thought appear to be due to this assumption.

Approaching the analysis of language, living language, with that dogmatic assumption, we shall always be left with a huge residue - really the vast majority of linguistic facts -unaccounted for; and ordinary language, instead of disclosing its own system and structure, is made to appear "unsystematic" and "logically imperfect".13 In fact, what is here considered to be an imperfection of language is due to the inadequacy of a preconceived interpretative scheme. Ordinary usage fails to exhibit the kind of system that logical grammar would elicit from it.


Right. If you, even for a second, attempt to apply rules of standard Sentential Logic to a question, such as "Since you are a monk, don't you have Wisdom bonus to AC?", your result is meaningless.

If you, even for a second, attempt to apply the rules of standard Sentential Logic to an exclamation, such as "I want to add my Wisdom Modifier to my AC!", your result is meaningless.

If you, even for a second, attempt to apply the rules of standard Sentential Logic to a command, such as "If you are a monk, add your Wisdom modifier to your AC.", your result is meaningless.

Got it?

-Username17
Oberoni
Knight
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Logic: Use Wisely or leave it alone.

Post by Oberoni »

Follow your own directive.

No, seriously.

Here's what you're saying.

"2+2 = 4, right?

WRONG.

What if I have two and two and one?

Then, we no longer have 4 at all--we have 5!!!

Obviously, the idea of 2+2=4 is wrong, because it fails to take into account that 2+2+1=5!!!"

The long and short of this is that you fail to understand certain kinds of logic--and rather than try to learn how it applies in this situation, or even quietly let it slide into the background--you insist on making a large spectacle of the whole debacle, even starting a thread on which to do so, in order to try in vain to prove yourself correct.

Don't.

Don't be the poster that will try to ram his point through despite overwhelming evidence that he's wrong.

Don't be the guy that still insists the sun and all the planets revolve around the Earth, despite all the mathematical proof that it does not.

Don't be the guy that calls Earth flat, despite the fact that people have sailed around the world without falling off.

Instead, admit that you're wrong--or, if you're so inclined, don't admit it. Either way, stop claiming that you're right until you actually are.

I don't know how else to put this, except these two statements:

"If you are a monk, then you add your wisdom bonus to AC."

and

"If you do not add your wisdom bonus to AC, then you are not a monk."

Are actually the exact same thing. There is never a time where one sentence is true and the other is not; likewise, there is never a time where one sentence is false and the other is not.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Logic: Use Wisely or leave it alone.

Post by Username17 »

Oberoni, are you high?

Is there some special magical impediment that prevents you from seeing that the rules of sentential logic do not function when used outside of their own explicit limitations?

Here's what you're saying.

"2+2 = 4, right?

WRONG.

What if I have two and two and one?


No.

What I am saying is that the statement "You have two and two" does not prevent you from also having an extra one and having a total of five.

2 + 2 still equals four. But you can have two and two and still have five, contingent upon what else you have.

"If you are a monk, then you add your wisdom bonus to AC."

and

"If you do not add your wisdom bonus to AC, then you are not a monk."

Are actually the exact same thing.


One is a directive, one is a declarative statement. One has no Truth value and does not go into truth tables, the other does and does.

If you can't see that, you have no business even debating Logic because you seriously don't understand the very first limitation of the logical rules we are discussing.

There is never a time where one sentence is true and the other is not; likewise, there is never a time where one sentence is false and the other is not.


Huh? The first sentence is a command, it isn't ever "True" from a logical stand point. The second sentence is declarative, and can be True or False depending upon circumstances.

-Username17
User3
Prince
Posts: 3974
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Logic: Use Wisely or leave it alone.

Post by User3 »

Oh, that's funny if that's what you're hung up on.


Franky baby, quoting the one and only wrote:"If you are a monk, then you add your wisdom bonus to AC."

and

"If you do not add your wisdom bonus to AC, then you are not a monk."

Are actually the exact same thing."


One is a directive, one is a declarative statement. One has no Truth value and does not go into truth tables, the other does and does.


"If you are a monk, then you add your wisdom bonus to AC" can be interpreted as a command. "Hey! You! Monk! You better add that Wisdom to AC, now!"

It can also be a statement of fact. "Oh, you're a monk? Just by being a monk, you get your Wisdom bonus to AC."

Let's put it this way.

"If you're a living human being, then you breathe."

I'm not actually commanding you to breathe. I'm stating a fact. Nice and simple.

So what's your assertion? That rules are simply a series of commands and thus, we can't contrapositve them?

That's odd, because you can't really say "no" to some rules. Commands are set up in such a way that you could say "no" to them and that's that. "If you go the store, then get me bread" can easily be responded to with "no!" You have a choice not to follow a command.

Let's go back to the classic: "If you are a monk, then you add your wisdom bonus to AC."

The monk can't just up and say "no, I don't want to" and that's that. He's not choosing to obey a command--because there's no command to obey.

"If you are a monk, then you add your wisdom bonus to AC" is undeniably a declarative statement.

Oh...

And I can already see your next rebuttal coming, so if it helps, use this phrase instead: "If you gain a level in Fighter, then you add +1 to your BAB."

Just in case you try to claim that a monk can strap on armor to "refuse the command" or somesuch.


Oberoni
Knight
Posts: 386
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Logic: Use Wisely or leave it alone.

Post by Oberoni »

And, of course, that special edition "I got logged out for no good reason" edition of the previous post was brought to you by me. :)
User avatar
fbmf
The Great Fence Builder
Posts: 2590
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Logic: Use Wisely or leave it alone.

Post by fbmf »

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
This is already getting hostile. I'm going to shut it down.

I know it's the bastard child of another thread, and I'm going to leave that one open, but I don't see this one going anywhere.
[/The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

Game On,
fbmf
Post Reply