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Farming the Paizils for the win.
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Sock Puppet
Apprentice


Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay, Paizils. I see where you're from, but I don't really see the necessity to doing it. Of course, I'm of the opinion that the Interweb is already too oversaturated with ultraspecialized jargon, and the further we get away from The Queen's English, the more impediments we put up to free communication. But in today's age of texting-pidgin and 1334-speak, I'm aware that my views are becoming more and more in the minority. I shudder to think that the next generation will all be a bunch of goddamn LOLcats.

And as for your mission; well, if it gives you a sense of purpose, then more power to you. But what I can't fathom is the... futility of it. You're speaking a different language than the Paizils. You're using hypothetical situations to mathematically challenge a situation, which they simply don't accept because they don't play that way. They're filtering everything through the only play experience that they know, which is play experience. Mutual interaction with their friends, and did they have a good time? That's all that counts. That's all that mattered to their 'playtest' and that's all that they'll really accept as data to proccess. Pathfinder just doesn't seem to be marketed to powergamers, rules lawyers, and scientists. It's for families and play groups, and shit like that. That's why it seems so much like going to Grandma's House when you visit the Paizo forums. Everything's got to be so wholesome there. You... are just not. You probly didn't even shave today, or put on your nice suit, or remember to get the flowers for your grandma like I asked. You probly don't even smell good.

So why do it? You're not gonna change anyone's mind, and it's really hard to admire someone who just likes to piss on somebody else's parade. It's okay to go out and start your own parade every once and a while, if you're really that bored.
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Maxus
Overlord


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 7632

PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, you have to understand that Roy can be a bloody-minded who likes proving a point (No offense, Roy).

By taking the iconics and putting them through the gauntlet, it'd demonstrate the failure of the Pathfinder changes while showing the iconics fucking suck and probably wouldn't survive to the level they're portrayed, were they started at level 1 and played organically.

Now, that's a decent exercise in and of itself. Iconic characters should be able to hold their own.

And, truth be told, going all-out and running optimized Pathfinder characters would be good, too. It'd be able say, "Everything that could be done to make them good, was done. And what was available wasn't enough."

I'd really do the average-to-optimized tests, with the iconics done as an addendum.
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He jumps like a damned dragoon, and charges into battle fighting rather insane monsters with little more than his bare hands and rather nasty spell effects conjured up solely through knowledge and the local plantlife. He unerringly knows where his goal lies, he breathes underwater and is untroubled by space travel, seems to have no limits to his actual endurance and favors killing his enemies by driving both boots square into their skull. His agility is unmatched, and his strength legendary, able to fling about a turtle shell big enough to contain a man with enough force to barrel down a near endless path of unfortunates.

--The horror of Mario

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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Roy
Prince


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 2770

PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

MGuy wrote:
Wouldn't it be a more "even-ish" if you instead took the iconics for their level and optimized them by paizo rules before going through their individual tests?


What can you actually do with their rules though? Sure you could fix the bullshit like wasting cash on stuff like necklaces of Fireball instead of the level appropriate staples, and that would marginally improve them but it is still not good enough to save them. A TWF sans bonus damage (Fighter) will still fail. A Rogue that cannot sneak attack under most of the conditions that they previously could will still fail, even if immunity was completely removed. A Healbot will still fail. And so on down the line.

At most, it would stop them from being farmed by mooks who can exploit the fact they have at least one save that was level appropriate around level 3 despite being 8-14 to take them out in one shot. But that still doesn't help them against anything close to level appropriate, because not bad =/= good.

Sock Puppet: The necessity to a summarized reference is convenience. No one needs to hear the long drawn out explanation more than once. After that, just referring to it by name is good enough for people to know what you're talking about. Same as any other name, and it's why if you say 'Wizard' to anyone who has even a passing familiarity with fantasy they will instantly have at least a general idea of what you mean, likely with examples. Similarly, there is enough material detailing why PF is a bad product and Paizo and their customers are also bad that just saying 'Paizil' is good enough for people to understand.

You are right about the LOLcat thing, but creating terminology for talking shop is a time tested and honored tradition. It has nothing to do with 1337speak.

We've also already established the goal isn't to convert the Paizils, they're hopeless. The goal is to prevent the Paizils from Stupefying anyone else. I'd post a witty Harry Potter pic here, but that would be counterproductive and I cannot be bothered in any case.

I will say this though. It's nothing like Grandma's house. My grandmother was very laid back and cool. She also made cookies. I was not stunned for 1d6 rounds (save negates) just by looking at anything she had done. I suspect this is typical for grandmothers. I also do not recall my grandmother's house regularly causing my passive aggressive meter to explode and implode at the same time, Schrodinger's Fuck Up style. I also do not recall my grandmother making vague and veiled threats towards me for bullshit or irrelevant reasons. I could keep going, but suffice it to say you could not be more wrong about that.

Now here's the thing. The Paizils are so easy to rally against, because they are in many ways highly offensive to those around them, to the gaming community, and to people in general. Also, at no point do you need to lie or twist things as the truth is more than sufficiently damning. It's like Scientologists, complete with threats for legal action. And that means they're going to tick people off, who in turn are sufficiently motivated to ensure the truth gets out there, thereby giving them plenty of negative publicity. I am one such person, but not the only one.

In other words, they're digging their own grave, as they are encouraging negative publicity against their cult like following. And what makes it all the more galling is that all they had to do was behave like sapient and sensible human beings and all that negative publicity would have been positive instead. If it were me, I would have at the least pretended to work with those guys for the free and extensive positive publicity. But then I'm smart and take advantage of things that are beneficial to me. And that automatically disqualifies me from working with the Paizils, because there is a maximum Intelligence score requirement which I (and much of the world) exceed.
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Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:
Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.


Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?


Juton wrote:
Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
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violence in the media
Duke


Joined: 06 Jan 2009
Posts: 1634

PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maxus wrote:

Now, that's a decent exercise in and of itself. Iconic characters should be able to hold their own.


+1. My reasoning for this is that, in the worst case scenario, a new player should be able to pick up an iconic and jump into a game without it being a depressing experience.
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Sock Puppet
Apprentice


Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What’s with this obsession with the word ‘fail’ anyway? Or, for that matter, what’s with all the hostility in general? I think somebody needs to give you a hug, or a puppy or something.
I know, this is how the scenario should play out:

Every Paizil He Has Ever Known: Join us, Roy. We love you.
Roy: Your game is made of fail.
Every Paizil He Has Ever Known: Your face is made of fail.
Roy: Your mom is made of fail.
Every Paizil He Has Ever Known: Your mom’s face is made of fail.
Roy and EPHHEK pause momentarily, then throw their arms around each other and kiss passionately. They join hands, and skip merrily off into the sunset together.
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Roy
Prince


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 2770

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's disgusting. Almost as bad as that Frantic fucker and his loli dismemberment porn. Weren't you supposed to be proving you weren't just here to troll?

Edit: I've been trolled by PR. Good job. That explains a lot.
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Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:
Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.


Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?


Juton wrote:
Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)


Last edited by Roy on Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Roy
Prince


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 2770

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So anyways, back to the smiting of imbeciles. No takers?
_________________
Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:
Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.


Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?


Juton wrote:
Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
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Parthenon
Knight-Baron


Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 908

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Just curious here. That whole 4e troll where you did a 4e game where you pointed out all the flaws in the system during gameplay... did it happen?

If it did, did it actually do anything? Did anyone read it and make a comment on how something is stupid? Did anyone learn anything from it?

If not (and I'm assuming it didn't since if it did then you or others would make a thread patting yourselves on the back) then what makes you think that this will do anything? Otherwise it seems like you're trying to find new ways to troll people while appearing to be reasonable and polite.
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Sock Puppet
Apprentice


Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Roy: I'm sorry that I'm getting under your skin so much, buddy. I was just trying to have a little fun, maybe make a joke and razz you a bit. Irreverent humor, no big deal, it's actually how I treat all my friends. You know, Stick Figure, Dust Bunny, Block Head, Lazy Bones, the whole crew. You somehow didn't strike me as the thin-skinned type. But if you really find my snarkies to be annoying and disruptive, I'll quit jacking your thread, put my shenanigans away in their box, and vanish back down my rabbit-hole.

Good day, sir.
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Roy
Prince


Joined: 01 Aug 2008
Posts: 2770

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Parthenon wrote:
Just curious here. That whole 4e troll where you did a 4e game where you pointed out all the flaws in the system during gameplay... did it happen?

If it did, did it actually do anything? Did anyone read it and make a comment on how something is stupid? Did anyone learn anything from it?

If not (and I'm assuming it didn't since if it did then you or others would make a thread patting yourselves on the back) then what makes you think that this will do anything? Otherwise it seems like you're trying to find new ways to troll people while appearing to be reasonable and polite.


We made it. But it hasn't gotten very far yet, and the DM is... I don't know where. You haven't seen me and others talking about it because not a lot happens in random chatter + 3 rounds of combat. PbP for the loss.

You sure do like accusing me of trolling. It makes me inclined to actually start doing so, since I'm going to be accused of it regardless. Satire =/= trolling. I'm not even sure why you're bringing it up here.

Also, this version of PR is kinda funny when he isn't being a total douchebag. And much lulz are had accordingly.
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Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:
Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.


Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?


Juton wrote:
Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.


Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
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Sock Puppet
Apprentice


Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 73

PostPosted: Thu Aug 06, 2009 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Roy wrote:
...when he isn't being a total douchebag.


Aw, gee. I heart you too.
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Parthenon
Knight-Baron


Joined: 24 Jan 2009
Posts: 908

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I apologise for assuming that you were trolling and that your 4e satire project hasn't done anything yet. .... wait, to be honest I'm only half apologising to Roy. I should give the 4e satire project more time to let it happen.

However, all of Roy's suggestions on this thread have been pretty useless for what the project is trying to do: showing how bad the iconics are mechanically and as a side benefit showing some of the drawbacks of Pathfinder.

There are about 5 people sort of interested in this project. Why not take one iconic at a time and each person take 2-3 of the monsters of that CR and mechanically work out an estimate of the likelihood of winning. Average damage per round of attack, number of attacks that it can take before it gets killed, likely tactics, whatever. If possible using non-SRD monsters since they should be backwards compatible and Paizans will just complain that all the SRD monsters will be changed for the Pathfinder Bestiary anyway. That should take maybe two days, giving people enough time to test the monsters and write it up. This will test 90% of the monsters of each CR against the iconic.

After two weeks of doing this for each iconic you have 7 out of the 11 iconics done: enough to show quite well against almost all the monsters that they are useless against the same CR. It stops the complaints about picking and choosing monsters, it splits the tasks into manageable parts and you don't have any arguments about building the 3.5 characters and amount of optimisation. After all, if you compare against 3.5 characters someone will just argue that "Pun-Pun or whatever stupid non-playable cheese could win anyway" and that "it just proves that Pathfinder is more balanced".

If you really wanted you could make a party of the four ECL 8 iconics (cleric, monk, druid and bard) and attempt them against various enemies of CR 8 and see how many TPKs have more than a 40% chance, to stop people complaining that they should only be viewed as part of a group.
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Crissa
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 6745
Location: Santa Cruz

PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's not very intuitive, nor is the subject line of this thread.

The idea of showing how poorly written their characters are is admirable, but I'm sure the defense will be that 'they weren't optimize; you shouldn't need to be optimized to play the game,' which is true, but these are kinda seriously badly written.

-Crissa

Oh, yes, using Paizo creatures would be good. Or characters with limited resources spent somehow... Using their rules, of course.


Last edited by Crissa on Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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