[3.5] Downgrading actions?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:52 am

Are you able to downgrade your actions? For example, you have a pair of quickened fireballs, along with a normal fireball. Can you use your standard, move, & swift actions to cast all three?

IGTN · Post by **IGTN** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:00 am

I don't think there's anything in the rules that says you can.

I wouldn't allow a Move to become Swift. Standard to Swift should be fine, though.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:16 am

I assumed it was default. Rules were unspecific and it made sense to do so.

I mean, we can blink without any effort at all, but if one wishes to... they can blink veeeerrrrryyy ssssslllllooooowwwwllllyyyyyy.

Ice9 · Post by **Ice9** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:31 am

A standard should be downgradable to a swift action (although this is not technically stated in the rules). But a move action can't be converted to a swift action - it doesn't encompass the same things.

4E:
Standard > Move > Minor

3E:
Standard > Move
Standard > Swift

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 5:36 am

Making Standard -> Move -> Minor action equivalency was one of the best ideas that 4E had. So was creating Opportunity, Immediate Reactions and Immediate Interrupts.

It doesn't work in 3rd Edition because Swift Actions were obviously built on the assumption that you wouldn't use more than one a round--hence the nature of Immediate Actions.

Crissa · Post by **Crissa** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:58 am

You may downgrade actions; you can use your 'action' for a move, but generally 'swift' actions can only be swift actions, in other words, things blow up if you can do some of them more than once...

-Crissa

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:34 am

With downgrade actions, why not go all the way and do turn-based Action Points?

4e (5ap pool)
• Minor 0ap to 1ap, unsure
• Move 2ap
• Standard 3ap

3e (5ap pool)
• Immediate 0ap
• Swift 0ap (limit 1?)
• Move 2ap
• Standard 3ap

The math doesn't quite work out, or perhaps larger numbers are required.
For instance a Standard > Move in all instances; 2 Moves can make a turn, but one can't perform 2 Standards. 1 Move and 1 Standard is possible.
Therefore, in a pool of 10ap:
• Standard 6ap
• Move 4ap
• 2ap leftover (Minor/Swift)

IMO one could have a balanced system of increased AP with level gain and static ability purchase but NOT attached to stats, buff, or item.
Abilities of all kinds would become more frequent each turn, or alternatively one might discount specific categories of powers such as Melee, Ranged, Spells, or Move.

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 11:11 am

virgileso wrote:Are you able to downgrade your actions? For example, you have a pair of quickened fireballs, along with a normal fireball. Can you use your standard, move, & swift actions to cast all three?

Quicken Spell wrote:You may cast only one quickened spell per round.

So no.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:15 pm

And for natural abilities that happen to be swift actions to activate?

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:58 pm

virgileso wrote:And for natural abilities that happen to be swift actions to activate?

What abilities specifically are you thinking about?

hogarth · Post by **hogarth** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:07 pm

virgileso wrote:And for natural abilities that happen to be swift actions to activate?

The 3.5 rules don't allow it. Would it be unbalanced? Probably not.

TOZ · Post by **TOZ** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:57 pm

I've always understood that you get a standard and a move, and can convert your standard to a move. Then they added swift actions but never specified that you could convert to those.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:18 pm

TOZ wrote:I've always understood that you get a standard and a move, and can convert your standard to a move. Then they added swift actions but never specified that you could convert to those.

Correct. They explicitly state that you can swap a standard for a move. When they later came out with swift actions, they didn't say anything.

per the SRD:

SRD wrote:You can take a move action in place of a standard action.

I can see where the OP thinks it's implied, but I think Ice9 summed it up best:

Ice9 wrote:4E:
Standard > Move > Minor

3E:
Standard > Move
Standard > Swift

Clearly, the standard action is the best of the three, but swift actions and move actions are kind of like apples and oranges here. And while a swift might be "quicker" in terms of how much time it takes to execute, you're limited to one per round for balance reasons.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 6:48 am

hogarth wrote: The 3.5 rules don't allow it. Would it be unbalanced? Probably not.

We'll never know until tried.
I agree, probably fine.

Player1: "I use my first round to chug an armload of buff potions."
DM: "I'll allow it. 50 points for Gryffindor."
Player2: "That's not fair, he should have to waste his turn on moving and attacking like I am!"
Player1: "You're just jealous that you don't have any potions. Like I do. Correction, did."

tzor · Post by **tzor** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:19 pm

It is things like this that make me long for the days of the old 1E "potion miscibility table."

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:23 pm

tzor wrote:It is things like this that make me long for the days of the old 1E "potion miscibility table."

Even a Witcher-like 'toxin bar' might be enough, but really three potions at the start of combat isn't unreasonable.

Quantumboost · Post by **Quantumboost** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:08 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:a Witcher-like 'toxin bar'

Resource mechanic for BoG perhaps?

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:27 pm

tzor wrote:It is things like this that make me long for the days of the old 1E "potion miscibility table."

That was in AD&D as well. I don't miss it at all.

I wouldn't stop at three potions, though. It would be as many Swifts a PC can scrape out of their downgraded action points each turn.

"You drank the entire cartload in a minute?!?"

schpeelah · Post by **schpeelah** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:32 pm

Maybe make them use up BoG item slots, providing level-appropriate though situational bonuses (Energy Resistance, Spell Resistance, Ghost Touch, anything that comes up or not depending on who you are fighting). And scaling healing potions. Can't have a fantasy RPG without healing potions.

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:05 pm

I'm of the opinion that potions should heal the max amount of the spell. None of this 1d8+1 or 2d8+3 bullshit. Know how many times I've rolled snake eyes on healing potions? Too damn many. If they're going to cost so much, they should do something worth the expense.

RobbyPants · Post by **RobbyPants** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:16 am

Meikle641 wrote:I'm of the opinion that potions should heal the max amount of the spell. None of this 1d8+1 or 2d8+3 bullshit. Know how many times I've rolled snake eyes on healing potions? Too damn many. If they're going to cost so much, they should do something worth the expense.

That's what wands are for. Less than a third of the cost per use.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:52 am

Meikle641 wrote:I'm of the opinion that potions should heal the max amount of the spell. None of this 1d8+1 or 2d8+3 bullshit. Know how many times I've rolled snake eyes on healing potions? Too damn many. If they're going to cost so much, they should do something worth the expense.

I think that's another matter entirely, but yes. Rolling for heal is shit.
Damage should usually be random (even though most 'dice' of spells could stand for a solid value with a little random on top) while the healing should always be maximized, just like a PC's HP.

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[3.5] Downgrading actions?

[3.5] Downgrading actions?

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