Heroes of Battle

[Sir Neil]

I'd never seen this before I went to the store last week, and if my special order hadn't gotten in I'd've picked it up on the spot.

It looked like the "war in your campaign" section of Compleat Warrior fleshed out into a stand-alone book. Have any of you read it?

[User3]

I found the "volley of arrows" and dropping "objects/divebombing" rules to be useful, and the War Weaver to be an interesting addition to the buff-mage concept.

The point system for in-game social benefits(war-related) was also quite salvagable.

The team rules didn't make much sense to me, as I don't see a reason why every group wouldn't take the "spot and listen checks every round for free" package, since this was hands-down the most useful one.

[fbmf]

So do we get a complete review?

Game On,
fbmf

[Wrenfield]

I took a peek at the book yesterday (will buy it soon, hopefully). And I concur with K, the War Weaver is a totally exceptional PrC. It's class abilities totally make up for the 9/10 spellcaster progression of the class (something I normally despise). It makes a Wizard capable of totally outnumbering a Sorceror's normally higher spellcasting count, all the while still maintaining all your normal Wizardly goodness (in comparison to Sorceror class ability suckage).

Of course, it takes some efforts in collaborative party planning and a desire to cast at least some buff spells (which normal well-designed Wizards have in their repertoire anyway).

I'll be writing up an 11th level Wizard next week for a new campaign. And rest assured, I'll be taking a full 5 levels of War Weaver. Woooo!

I'll have to take a look at the class's mechanics again, but I think I can "web" my group with the Create Magical Tattoo spell as well. Which seems odd with the spells ability to get range extended - but it will sure free up some serious spell slots while buffing up my friends for 24 hours at a shot (or 48 with Extension).

[User3]

1116271691[/unixtime]]So do we get a complete review?

Game On,
fbmf

Yes, echoing our fearless Mod Leader, I'd love to see a review of this boook. Conceptually, it looks vastly different that the other WOTC sourcebooks

[Sir Neil]

Ais picked it up for me when she got off work yesterday. It's 157 pages for $30. *cring* Designed by Dave Noonan, Will McDermott, & Stephn Schubert.

Chapter 1 discusses how to motivate PCs in a war campaign; how to handle treasure, rest periods, and offers some ideas on noncombat missions. In several places it also seems to draw on the heroes vs armies thread here on the den, discussing the role of higher level characters.

One concept I found interesting was "war is the setting." It reminded me how "WW II" is pratically a stand-alone genre in movies and video games. I'm curious how it would play out as a twenty-level campaign.

Chapter 2 is adventure building. They offer examples of site-based and event based adventures, complete with maps. HoB also included lists of battlefield hazards (piled corpses, Will DC 20 or become shaken; foxholes, +8 cover bonus to AC), just like the dungeon features in the DMG. It introduces manuever elements (8-12 infantry, 4-6 cavalry) in lieu of a mass combat system. The Bloody Eye Company isn't really 100 orcs, it's ten squads of 10 orcs each.

Chapter 3 has 8 adventures for parties from 4th-10th (can be scaled from 2-13) as well as 7 sample armies, including a druid's commando force, a lich's undead horde, and a company of baatezu. (11 additional generic armies can be found in the appendix.)

Chapter 4 goes into detail about siege weapons (heavy trebuchet 14d6, R 15 for half), aerial bombardment, and arrow volleys. It also features commander's auras from the MiniHB and the return of the morale check (Will saves vs. fear.)

Commander's aura: more power for no reason. Most of them provide morale bonuses from +1-+3 to hit, damage, AC, or saves.

Chapter 5 has new feats, PrCs, and teamwork benefits. This books uses 16 and a half pages to describe four 5 level prestige classes. Beyond the special ability descriptions, they go into detail about playing them, their role in the world, NPC reactions, the Knowledge DC to gain info about the class, and a sample adventure based on each one.

Some of the feats looked interesting:
Block Arrow: Deflect Arrows without the IUS requirement.
Expanded Aura of Courage: to 60 feet.
Mounted Mobility: Mobility for both of you without the Dodge requirement.
Shield Wall: +2 AC when an adjacent ally also uses a shield.

Combat Medic PrC: Poor BAB, full caster progression. At level five you can spontaneously cast heal.

Dread Commando: With a full BAB you sneak attack and ignore Armor check penalties.

Legendary Leader: You can enter at level 7, and cast Greater Command 1/day as a 8th level character; at 10th, you automatically succeed at one saving throw per day; at 11th, all your followers are fearless.

War Weaver: Trade 1 spellcasting level for the capstone ability to cast 4 fifth-level buffs on your whole party as a move-equivalent action.

*whew*

The rest is spells and magic items and pregenerated soldiers.

This is the best book on designing battlefield adventures I've ever seen. I like this book a lot.

[Username17]

Interestingly, the only part of this whole book that I thought was worth attempting to salvage was the whole Victory Points / Wang Points system(s).

The idea is that you have a separate talley of how much people recognize your accomplishments, and how much you are turning the war in favor of your team (capturing territory, beating the crap out of enemy generals, whatever and etcetera). It's not a complete or consistent system, but it's the first solid step towards a system of rewards that are not directly linked to character power in combat.

In short, this book lays the ground work required for going back to abstract money, which is something D&D desparately desparately needs. I could honestly give a crap about their sophmoric descriptions of a Druid comando farce - I can and do make better ones while in the bathtub or just spontaneously as needed during play.

The whole system of recognition wherein slaying the dragon entitles you to marry the princess is an absolutely vital move that D&D must embrace if it is to escape the Diablo II esque gold hogging, and the strip mining of the Elemental Plane of Earth that naturally makes that a futile and self defeating attempt at game mechanics. It looks like a fvcking first draft in this book, but it is something that D&D needs.

-Username17

[Zherog]

1117907160[/unixtime]]Chapter 5 has new feats, PrCs, and teamwork benefits. This books uses 16 and a half pages to describe four 5 level prestige classes. Beyond the special ability descriptions, they go into detail about playing them, their role in the world, NPC reactions, the Knowledge DC to gain info about the class, and a sample adventure based on each one.

This is the "new and improved" prestige class format being used by WotC now. I believe it first appeared in Races of Destiny, and has been used since that time. As I understand it, this format came about as a direct result of people whining that there were too many PrCs in books and no flavor in those classes.

Personally, I think the new format blows more than the insecure fat chick at a Frat party.

[MrWaeseL]

Imagine the number of people playing a PrC exactly like the book says instead of giving it their own interpretation

[Wrenfield]

Yeah, as much as I love the War Weaver PrC (it fits my style to the "T"), I almost fell asleep reading its paging of accompanying material.

Next week, my group plans to test some of the mass-scale combat rules of this book. Hence, we are now writing up some characters to deal with these scenarios. Should be fun, since this is outside of our normal combat comfort zone.

[Sir Neil]

This is the "new and improved" prestige class format being used by WotC now.

Ah.

Well, it's ... different. Maybe it'll encourage PrC makers to do more than run together a random bunch of abilities.

[User3]

1118003351[/unixtime]]
Ah.

Well, it's ... different. Maybe it'll encourage PrC makers to do more than run together a random bunch of abilities.

Um, that's what a PrC is. Anything else wouldn't be a PrC.

[Wrenfield]

I don't have this book. Yet. But I have some questions for you that *do* have it.

1117907160[/unixtime]]Chapter 4 goes into detail about siege weapons (heavy trebuchet 14d6, R 15 for half), aerial bombardment, and arrow volleys. It also features commander's auras from the MiniHB and the return of the morale check (Will saves vs. fear.)

Commander's aura: more power for no reason. Most of them provide morale bonuses from +1-+3 to hit, damage, AC, or saves.

1. The Morale Check = Is this a variant rule just for mass combat or is it being suggested for normal D&D play as well? Conceptually, it sounds like a good idea. Although I am open to any of you's opinions on how effective this specific ruleset is for normal play.

2. Commander's Aura = Hoo-daddy. Again, mass combat or normal D&D? Is this obtainable via feats, PrC class abilities, or what? I'd be curious too, to see if it robs mojo from the Bard or the Marshal (Mini HB) core classes.

Dread Commando: With a full BAB you sneak attack and ignore Armor check penalties.

Interesting. WotC keeps hearing the clarion call for more and more rogue PrC's that de-emphasize skills and special abilities, and more that emphasize BAB and beatdown. This sounds like the Char Op board's dream PrC. For they are forever in search of a BAB 18-20 with 9d6 or more sneak attack dice in a combat rogue build.

Legendary Leader: You can enter at level 7, and cast Greater Command 1/day as a 8th level character; at 10th, you automatically succeed at one saving throw per day; at 11th, all your followers are fearless.

Can you break even further, the broken Leadership feat with this PrC?

War Weaver: Trade 1 spellcasting level for the capstone ability to cast 4 fifth-level buffs on your whole party as a move-equivalent action.

I am totally freakin' in love with this PrC. And, I'm convinced, I can really make it a multi-tasking superstar along with Contingency, Quicken Spell, swift action spells, etc.. Totally sweet. And an MVP candidate for most popular party player as well. It's ultra buff action should give aggregate party survivability a *huge* boost.

[Sir Neil]

Um, that's what a PrC is. Anything else wouldn't be a PrC.

I remember Monte saying they were intended for DMs to use them to make campaign-specific roles into classes.

*******
Reading the section again, morale checks seem to only be used when high-level PCs are mowing through the enemy army, not when their opponent has a fighting chance.

Commander auras affect all allies with Int 3+ within 60 feet, except for the commander generating it. It operates in mass combat or regular dungeon crawls, and the only way you get it is during play, when the character is given military rank.

Dread commando actually has sudden strike, a sneak attack that doesn't apply when flanking.

Legendary leader gets a bonus feat that double the number of followers, but anyone could grab it.

[User3]

They also appear to have forgotten the section on Weapon and Armour proficiencies in every single PrC.