Fixing Grapple Rules.

[Username17]

The Grapple Rules are a mess.

They've been a mess since they were introduced in the seventies. And they are still a mess.

Right now a Bear gives up their primary combat advantage (having three attacks), by using what is supposed to be their primary advantage - using their improved grab ability.

But that's not the important part. What's really important is that when a Behir attempts to eat you, you have to roll no less than 4 different times (once to grab, once to hold, once to retain hold, and once to swallow), three of which are opposed tests and none of which are understood terribly well by anyone - even the designers.

That's too complicated and too confusing. If used properly, it's also too lethal, and if used improperly its too lame.

So that's the situation.

What do people want to do about it?

I want it to be simple enough that people can understand it, without being as grotesquely lethal as the table from Advanced D&D (which had a 5% chance of any Goblin knocking your ass right out any time they attempted to grab your face).

I'm thinking that the vast majority of opposed checks should be removed - and made to be just one opposed test each round. While there is a certain amount of realism and coolness to be had in a Purple Worm lofting a character into the air and then having the character get lodged their for a couple rounds while it attempts to swallow them - in practice it's way too much confusion and bogs the game down.

So I propose:

Swallow Whole: If you grab someone, and are still holding them at the beginning of your next turn, you swallow them.

Improved Swallow Whole: If you grab someone, you swallow them.

No second chances, no extra grapple checks, just streamlining and eating.

-Username17

[da_chicken]

Well, the easiest thing to do is to change opposed checks to DCs. d20 + modifier vs 11 + modifier. Kind of reversing the silly opposed save system with 3.0 psionics. That involves very little in the way of rules rewriting.

My only problem with the 3.5 grapple rules (beyond complexity issues) is that the PH doesn't say whether or not "Attack With a Light Weapon" requires a grapple check or not. Every other action says if it does or not. I assume it doesn't since attacks still have to beat AC.

[Username17]

Interesting note: neither the rules for attacking with a light weapon nor the rules for attacking with a natural weapon are in the SRD. Apparently they are closed content, possibly because they are retarded (although the rules for attacking with your opponent's light weapon are in there for some reason).

Yeah, I think making a fixed DC would help a lot, for one thing it could easily be tweaked to allow small characters to leap onto the backs of giants and dragons and cling there "out of reach" while they repeatedly stab the monster in the back. I mean, that's a combat manuver that desperately needs to be in there, and the fact that it isn't is simply mysterious.

But it also needs to be reworked slightly to be less into attack actions, and call for less rolls altogether. As written, having a kobold grabbing my foot lets my high level rogue use a wand of fireballs more often in a round. I mean, what the hell is that? A simple DC to be able to take any of a series of grapple options for the round with your regular actions, and a separate list of actions you can do with your normal actions which can be done even if you fial that DC would be fine.

-Username17

[da_chicken]

1077322056[/unixtime]]Interesting note: neither the rules for attacking with a light weapon nor the rules for attacking with a natural weapon are in the SRD. Apparently they are closed content, possibly because they are retarded (although the rules for attacking with your opponent's light weapon are in there for some reason).

Er? It's in the version of the SRD I use. It's also on page 8 of CombatII.rtf from WotC's SRD.

Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks.
You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

Yeah, I think making a fixed DC would help a lot, for one thing it could easily be tweaked to allow small characters to leap onto the backs of giants and dragons and cling there "out of reach" while they repeatedly stab the monster in the back. I mean, that's a combat manuver that desperately needs to be in there, and the fact that it isn't is simply mysterious.

Well, you can kinda do this. CW's Giantbane has Climb Aboard, but the effect of doing it is kinda worthless. I mean, you don't even get to ignore Dex.

But it also needs to be reworked slightly to be less into attack actions, and call for less rolls altogether. As written, having a kobold grabbing my foot lets my high level rogue use a wand of fireballs more often in a round. I mean, what the hell is that? A simple DC to be able to take any of a series of grapple options for the round with your regular actions, and a separate list of actions you can do with your normal actions which can be done even if you fial that DC would be fine.

-Username17

Some of the actions replace the attack action and can be iterative. Not all of them. Activating a magic item obviously shouldn't.